Discussion Page

Well, I am finding this story a tough one, but I do feel it’s beautifully written. We meet Shuggie as a young man living on his own in 1991, and then jump back quickly in time to 1981. While many characters interacting with the Bain family seem to consider Shuggie as “no right”, what’s your perception of him at this point? I see a sweet boy from an incredibly dysfunctional family practically raising himself. Shuggie is described by other characters in the story as effeminate and someone who doesn’t behave like a “real boy” should. How do you think a child like Shuggie would have been received in the time frame and socio-economic community this story is set in? How about today? I found Shuggie’s relationship with his maternal grandfather touching; what were you thinking when Shug and Agnes move their family out of Agnes’ parents’ house? I was regretfully somewhat expecting the abuse Shuggie experiences, both physical and mental, from outside the family, as it always seems to be the tragic experience of individuals who are deemed “odd” by their community. It’s heartbreaking, however, when Shuggie knows he is being deserted by his half siblings and left in bad situations at home—like when Leek won’t take Shuggie with him to their grandmother’s as soon as he realizes their mother is drunk yet again, even when Shuggie asks to go. Why do you think the older two children aren’t able to extend themselves to helping Shuggie? Are you surprised that Shuggie is so caring himself to his mother? I do feel in this section that Shuggie is still somewhat in the background of this book that takes his name as the title.

Did you notice the scenes depicting issues between Catholics and Protestants that show up here and there in this reading section? I guess I’ve always thought of those issues as being more a part of Northern Ireland than Scotland. However, an internet search taught me that religious and cultural sectarianism has been and still are issues for Scotland and something apparently the Scottish government has recently put a lot of effort in trying to resolve. An interesting article on the topic was published in the Scottish news magazine Holyrood in 2018. 

Let’s talk about Shuggie’s mother, Agnes. How are you feeling about this character so far? I think it sometimes difficult for an author to build empathy for a destructive personality, and while Agnes is truly dangerous I feel like we have some insight as to how she has come to be this way. Do you agree or disagree? Why? I loved the line where Agnes views her life as filled with “...the littered promises of better things”. Do you think the implied lack of discipline and spoiling by her father, which both her parents seem to have some awareness of, helped to create Agnes as an adult frustrated with how her life is going? Why do you think Agnes would endanger her young son, Shuggie, as well when she sets fire to the bedroom in the family flat? Do you get the impression that moving to Pithead and having to go on welfare might be the beginning of the end for Agnes? It seemed to me that there were two distinct points of view in regards to alcoholism in this section of the book. First, the neighborhood women in Pithead instantly saw Agnes as an alcoholic and after cruelly “outing” her about it, offer her Valium after commiserating about all the reasons in their lives to drink. Then the man in the taxi garage, who astutely realizes Agnes is pawning her old mink coat for booze money tries to advocate for AA. His advice is that the best revenge against people who are causing you trouble is to have great life—that nothing would irritate those people more than that. Do you think that is true? Which view do you think Agnes is more likely to follow?

I thought it was an interesting cultural note when Agnes and Shug had gone to Blackpool for the “Fair Fortnight”. Wondering what Fair Fortnight actually was led me to this interesting article about the historical Scottish summer break tradition that was published July 17, 2020 on the Glasgow Live website. 

For me, Hugh ‘Shug’ Bain, father of Shuggie, is probably one of the most despicable characters I’ve come across in literature. This guy is a sociopath. Do you see anything remotely redeemable about Shug? He’s violent, a chronic adulterer, and deserts his family. In another great line from the book, Agnes describes Shug as having “the talent to sell what he [my italics] wanted to a person like it was the thing they wanted the worst.” Why do you think Agnes views Shug this way? How do you think the other people in Agnes’ life view Shug? The scene that sent a shiver through me was the day of the move to Pithead, when Shug thinks to himself that he had to break Agnes completely to leave her for good, that “Agnes Bain was too rare a thing to let someone else love". (Horrendous thought, but great writing to my mind) How do you think Shug “broke” Agnes?

We are also introduced to Agnes’ older two children from her first marriage, Catherine and Alexander, known as Leek. Catherine’s involved with her stepfather Shug’s nephew, Donald. What are your predictions for that relationship? Leek is a quiet, artistic kid who slips away when things start going downhill with his mother. How would you describe their individual relationships with Shuggie?

Are you finding the Scottish slang and language in the book intriguing or challenging? If so, you might find this brief overview of Scottish phrases and words from The Culture Trip website helpful. Finally figured out what “buying their messages” means!

I discovered a lovely personal look at the city of Glasgow by the Scottish comedian Billy Connelly from 2012, where he shares the changes in his beloved hometown from his boyhood in the 1940s to today that I thought you might enjoy:

I hope you will check back next week as we read through chapters 12-22. I’m looking forward to hearing from you in the comments section!

I have to admit, I started reading Shuggie Bain with a little bit of trepidation. I was worried about how difficult it was going to be to live Shuggie’s life with him. The praise for Douglas Stuart’s writing style is what made the decision for me to choose this book for the blog and I have not been disappointed. In my mind, Stuart can turn a phrase, as they say, and last week on September 15^th Shuggie Bain was announced as one of six books on the shortlist for the 2020 Booker Prize. The Booker Prize is Britain’s most prestigious literary prize, given to the best novel of the year written in English and published in the United Kingdom. Being on the shortlist awards the nominees a small money prize, and the final winner from the short list wins £50,000 (close to $65,000 US) and a lot of literary prestige. The winner will be announced on November 17^th, and you can learn more about the Booker Prize on its’ official website. How are you feeling about Stuart’s writing style?

As to living through Shuggie’s life with him, it has been difficult; primarily because Stuart’s writing has brought this sweet, wise, long-suffering and yet persevering little boy off the page and right into my heart. In this week’s section of reading, Shuggie and Agnes primarily run the narrative. Shuggie by now has the care of his alcoholic mother down to a science and the patience to provide it, even when the stress of Agnes’s erratic day-to-day behavior affects Shuggie’s own health negatively. How sad that a child has to be so attuned to an adult’s behavior and become a caretaker. Why do you think Shuggie has stepped into this role? Why does his older brother Leek let him bear this responsibility? In a conversation with Annie, an older schoolmate who rescues him from a beating at school, Shuggie gets angry and shouts “Why do girls always let boys do what they like?” What has Shuggie experienced that might make him feel this way? What comparisons does Shuggie make between the random, multiple men who are briefly in his mother’s life and the women who claim to be Agnes’ friends? When fellow alcoholic (and, in my opinion, truly vile human being) Jinty McClinchy tries to convince Agnes that Shuggie belongs in a school for kids with mental disabilities, Shuggie physically hurts her. This is one of the rare times Shuggie strikes back at a tormentor; what do you think was different about the situation? Does Shuggie belong in such a school? When Shuggie is home he doesn’t let the neighborhood women in the house, and they learn to wait to come by until after he has left for school. Why does Shuggie try to keep the women away from his mother?

During this part of the novel we get to see Shuggie and Agnes’s relationship in a different light during a brief period of sobriety for Agnes. Shuggie at times finds himself embarrassed by a sober Agnes in a way he never did when she was drinking; why do you think he feels that way? When Agnes’ fellow AA members throw her a one-year sobriety party, Shuggie thinks that she won’t enjoy it—in fact, he says “No. I know my mammy. I think she will go mental when she sees Leek has taped balloons to her good cabinets. That tape will take the veneer right off”. What do you think Shuggie is trying to say with that comment? Is he correct?

One feature that keeps coming up again and again throughout this story is the Freeman’s catalog, a dog-eared, heavily perused catalog that offers for sale on credit almost any kind of item needed to Agnes and many others. Turns out that Freemans is a real thing that still exists today, and of course they have a website.   According to the history provided by the company, Freemans was started in 1905 and goods were sold on credit, with wives needing their husband's signature to buy goods. One hundred years later, in 2005, Freemans launched a new-look website and introduced payment by other credit and debit card in addition to its own credit accounts.

For me as a reader, this section of the novel was both redeeming and damning for Agnes. Do you agree? On the one hand, she devastatingly loses both her father and mother within a month of one another—a tough situation for anyone. At the time of her father’s death her mother tells the jaw-dropping story of getting pregnant during World War II because she was sleeping with the grocer to get food for baby Agnes and herself while Wullie was away fighting in North Africa. When Wullie comes home to find the new baby, he chillingly doesn’t really say anything to Lizzie about the situation but leaves home with the baby and comes back emptyhanded. How did you feel about this story? What insight does it provide into Agnes’ problems?

During Agnes’s sobriety, we get to see a more loving, caring side of her – a brief glimpse of what a normal life might have been like for the family. How does that glimpse make you feel? She makes meals for Shuggie and Leek, she spends time with Shuggie and even tells him to hold his head high and keep going when he’s caught dancing exuberantly by the neighborhood kids. Agnes tells Shuggie “You know they only win when you let them”. What does this interaction with his mother mean to Shuggie? What does it say about Agnes’ feelings about her son?

I loved the scene at the AA meeting where a member was sharing the legend of St. Agnes as a metaphor for his life as an alcoholic—supposedly, the Romans attempted to burn St. Agnes, but the fire wouldn’t light.  Another woman at the AA meeting made a private, cynical comment to our Agnes that since St Agnes wouldn’t burn, the Romans beheaded her—typical men. That comment made an impact on me; what point do you think author Stuart was trying make here? This scene also made me curious about the story of St. Agnes, and there’s an interesting version about the life of the Christian martyr on the University of Notre Dame’s faith outreach website.

While Shuggie cautiously enjoys his mother’s sobriety, not everyone in Agnes’ world feels the same. Even Shug the father stops by after a year and while grudgingly admiring her achievement, he deliberately hurts Agnes with the news that estranged daughter Catherine is pregnant. When Eugene comes into Agnes’ life, he seems like possibly the best of out a bad lot of men. What did you first think of their relationship? However, not even Eugene understands the AA program, can’t understand that Agnes can’t even have one drink like “normal people do”, as he says. Why do you think Eugene pushes Agnes into having a drink? Why does Agnes take that drink, even though she’s terrified? Were you surprised by what followed? How did you feel at the end of this scene?

If you are finding the world of alcoholism and the battles in achieving sobriety eye-opening or difficult to understand, you might find that the 2014 documentary The Anonymous People provides an interesting view of the reality of long-term recovery from and the stigma attached to addiction. The documentary is available to anyone with a MADL library card via the digital movie resource Kanopy Here’s the documentary’s official trailer:

Looking forward to checking in with you next week next week as we finish chapters 23-32 and end the book.  Hope to hear from you in the comments section!

(Caption) Sighthill high rise blocks cc-by-sa/2.0 - © Thomas Nugent - geograph.org.uk/p/1788196

Week 4 has arrived we’ve come to the end of Shuggie Bain. Obviously, with Agnes drinking again things weren’t going to end well, were they? Although it certainly takes a long, sad time. Near the end of the book I thought there was a great quote from Leanne, the young female friend Shuggie makes after he and Agnes move from Pithead to the East End of Glasgow. The two are sharing their war stories about caring for alcoholic mothers and Shuggie mentions that he feels that it is his fault that alcohol is going to kill Agnes. Leanne replies “Aye. It probably will kill her. But like I said, it’s a slow road and there’s nothing you can do to help her.” How did it make you feel that these two children are having this discussion? Is Leanne right?

Prior to moving to the East End, we have a time span of a year or so where Agnes severely deteriorates. After Hogmanay, when Shuggie actually tracks Agnes down at a New Year’s Eve party where she’s obviously been assaulted, Shuggie feels that something’s changed in his mother, that she’s no longer drinking to have a good time but to forget herself. Why do you think Agnes has changed? How does this change her relationship with Shuggie?

Taking a moment for a cultural side trip, Hogmanay is the Scottish term for New Year’s Eve and Scotland makes quite an event out of this holiday, making it last over three days. Apparently, the tradition is centuries old and you can learn more about Hogmanay on The Culture Trip website.

After Agnes’ horrifying attempted suicide, Shuggie briefly stays with his father Shug and his girlfriend, taxi dispatcher Joanie Micklewhite. Shuggie is amazed at this family’s dynamics, with Shug dealing good-naturedly with Joanie’s gang of kids. Shuggie can’t comprehend why his father puts up with them, but has no time for him. Why do you think that is the situation?  It’s humorous and depressing all at the same time when Agnes shows up to reclaim Shuggie and a brawl ensues, complete with neighborhood kids as cheering fans. Agnes says to Shug “Sometimes you don’t even want a thing. You just can’t bear anyone else to have it.” Can you think of times where Shug has displayed this personality trait before?

Interesting that Eugene sticks around for a while after instigating Agnes’ loss of sobriety. He keeps the refrigerator stocked with food, but when Agnes asks if he would come live with her and Shuggie if they moved, Eugene says no and never visits again. Why do you think Eugene made that decision? Why do you think Agnes asked him?

Shuggie ends up being the sole caretaker for his mother, and their relationship really changes as Agnes dives deeper and deeper into alcohol. Agnes manages to move them to a tenement in the East End, away from Pithead, with both she and Shuggie hoping for a new start. But that doesn’t happen, does it? It seems Shuggie is actually relieved when the kids start mocking him on his first day at his new school. Why do you think Shuggie feels that way? I was greatly relieved when Shuggie seems to connect with Leanne, the friend I mentioned at the beginning of this week’s post, and he seems to be able to open up to her. At this same time, Shuggie acknowledges the two falsehoods that he and his mother told each other. Shuggie now knows that Agnes “…would never be able to get sober” and he, who had been sitting in the cold with the lovely Leanne, “…would never feel quite like a normal boy.” Why do you think Shuggie finally can admit this to himself?

For Agnes’ last birthday, Shuggie makes such a valiant effort, doesn’t he? The flowers, saving a little money for Agnes to use at bingo. Of course, she drinks it all up and ends up being brought home by the police. It’s this last drinking bout where Shuggie doesn’t take his usual necessary precautions to keep Agnes alive while she’s blacked out, and she dies. Why do you think Shuggie lets her go this time, after keeping her safe so many times before? How do you feel about Shuggie’s decision?

We have a scene at the end with Shuggie and Leanne that I found so touching. Shuggie’s been living on his own entirely and these two survivors are also taking the best care they can of Leanne’s alcoholic mother Moira, who is now homeless. Although he tries to stop himself, Shuggie fails to hold back and asks Moira why she lives like this, that it hurts Leanne because she loves her mother. Moira replies “Ah think the more ye love someone the more they take the piss out of that. They will do less and less of what ye want and more and more of just as they [expletive deleted] please.” Why do you think Moira says that? Do you think Shuggie would agree? How do you feel about Shuggie living on his own? Do you think the story ends on a positive or negative note? Why?

What I always like to ask at book club, whether online or in person, is: did you enjoy the book? I can say unequivocally that I really loved Shuggie Bain. Nothing in the story seemed false to me at all, and reading author Douglas Stuart’s acknowledgments verified for me what I had been thinking throughout: that this book was very autobiographical. It seems like no one could write this story who didn’t live through it. There’s a great interview with Donald Stuart,  discussing his life and the writing of the book that was published by the Scottish newspaper The Herald on August 8, 2020. This interview really explains to me the compassion I felt throughout Stuart’s writing and I really admire him for that. He’s a more forgiving person than I think I could be. Plus the article is worth reading because Donald Stuart has really done some amazing things with his life; he is truly one resilient person. Best wishes for the 2020 Booker Prize, Mr. Stuart!

Shuggie Bain’s fictional experiences and Donald Stuart’s real ones made me think about the toll this kind of nightmare childhood takes from people as they become adults. Do you remember back in 2015-2016 when a study of Adverse Childhood Experiences, known as ACEs, was conducted in Muskegon County? The study was done by HealthWest to help health providers understand how health and social problems in our community are impacted by things that happen to people in childhood. The data showed that Muskegon County ACE numbers were found to be higher than previously published studies of both statewide and national data. It’s interesting reading and the Muskegon County ACEs final report is available online.

Finally, do you remember that just before Shuggie goes home to Agnes for the last time, he skips school and takes a bus ride to Sighthill, the public housing tower the whole Bain family had been living at in the beginning of the book? I found a fascinating 2016 photo and film documentary website called Disappearing Glasgow  that documents the demolition of many high rise housing units across the city. There is a whole section, including a short film, about Sighthill that gave me some additional perspective into the Bain family experience. Here’s a trailer for the entire documentary project to pique your interest:

Thanks for joining the MADL hoopla Book Club Blog for Shuggie Bain. Don’t forget to leave a comment to let me know how you enjoyed the book. Mark your calendar for October’s MADL hoopla Book Club Blog when we will be reading the non-fiction book I’ll Be Gone In The Dark by Michelle McNamara. I look forward to hearing from you in the comments section!